Originally posted in our Facebook Discussion board by Michael Houke. A extensive but not exhaustive list of evidences from scripture on what appears to be the Pre-tribulation Rapture case. It covers Historical, Nature of Tribulation, The Church, Imminency, The Holy Spirit, and contrasting the Second Coming with the Rapture. They are two separate events with two separate objectives. See our Rapture Audio Series Session 01 is at the bottom of article.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand… 2 Thessalonians 2
A word from Amos37. I no way is the doctrine of the Rapture ever meant to say that the Church will escape persecution! Escape the Tribulation Period of Daniel’s 70th week, yes! We believe God will send persecution to America to prepare His bride and soon. Many have no idea how severe the Tribulation & Great Tribulation will be.
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” 2 Timothy 3:12
50 Reasons for the Pre Tribulation Rapture
By Dr. John F. Walvoord
Historical Argument
1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord’s return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.
…
2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.
Hermeneutics
3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.
4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.
Arnold Fruchtenbaum – The Rapture
Dr. Fruchtenbaum explains some of the key passages from both the Greek text and Jewish Traditions mentioned. Very well done!
Nature of the Tribulation
5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.
6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.
7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).
8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).
9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.
10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation
11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.
11. The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.
Nature of the Church
12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.
13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).
14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.
15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.
16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).
17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).
18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.
19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.
20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).
21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.
22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.
23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.
Doctrine of Imminency
What is The Doctrine of Imminency? See here.
24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.
25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.
26. The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.
27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).
28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.
The Work of the Holy Spirit
29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.
30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).
31. If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.
Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming
32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.
34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).
35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.
36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.
37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).
38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.
Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming
39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.
40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).
41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.
43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.
44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.
45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.
46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.
47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.
48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.
49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.
50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.
Written by: John F. Walvoord
(The Rapture Question, Zondervan) See More
Connect with Amos37
Stay up to date with Amos37.com eMail update (Weekly)
Free Resources for the growing Christian.
“But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.” 2 Peter 3:18
Blue Letter Bible Free Online Bible & Study Tools & Commentaries
Bible Classes College Level For Free to Enroll Track your progress.
Our Own Free Discipleship Course In Video HD.
I wish you wouldn’t quote OT Scripture except from a translation directly from Hebrew to English. Further, I have never known any expositor to state with certainty who the twenty-four elders are: they could be BOTH OT and NT believers. And, I agree that the church is not subject to ‘the great day of His wrath’, but when does God’s wrath begin, exactly? And, when are the sheep and goats divided? How? Do you not believe that ‘the church’, which is comprised of true believers, has to be tested somehow – at least through persecution, as the early church was persecuted? If not, then how do the goats sitting in the pews thinking they’re ‘in’ get left behind? (Jeremiah 6:27-30) You contrast the rapture vs. the second arrival of the Lord, but that is not proof that the church is raptured prior to ANY events listed in Revelation. There are some who say that the seals of the horsemen are already being opened. Please don’t give people false hope that they will get out of any difficulties. Since when have God’s people ever been given the easy way out? (Jeremiah 13 begins with ‘When that day comes …’, an end times prophecy. Read on and see if this is solely for Israel.) I wish for pro-Trib rapture, but the more I know, the less I am convinced we get off unscathed.
Please do not confuse as many “American Christians” who think that a Pre-Trib Rapture means the Church here …”we get off unscathed.” as you say. I fully believe that serious persecution “a scathing” shall purify the American Church. Please check out our audio series. Thank you for your comment. Bless you. https://amos37.com/category/prophecy/rapture-series-audio/
Revelation 6: 8-11
~ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. ~ And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of YHWH, and for the testimony which they held: ~ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, Holy and True, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ~ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
. . That does not look to me, like there shall be a pre-Trib rapture, protecting His people. As a matter of fact, two of the main Passages, said to depict the “rapture” are those stating, “as in the days of Noah” and “as in the days of Lot”, “… one shall be taken and the other left”. We should be careful to remember that in the days of both, Noah and of Lot, those who were taken, were the evil, and those who were left, were the good.
. . There shall be a remnant, not slain, but many of His children will suffer death.
Troy,
Thanks for your interest. The seal judgements come after the rapture. Revelation 4:1.”After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
What things are “hereafter”? The Tribulation Period. Daniels 70th Week, which is for Israel will begin, NOT at the Rapture, but when “The Antichrist confirms a covenant” See Daniel 9 Study: https://amos37.com/2007/07/28/daniels-70-weeks/
The Days of Noah & Lot as you referenced is an excellent demonstration. But the reference you make is from Matthew 24 is to the Jews in Jerusalem. This is NOT about the Rapture. It and the gentile Church where still mysteries (NOT yet revealed) Ephesians 3:3-6 (Church) & The Rapture 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.
There will be a massive harvest of souls, during the Tribulation… We see under the alter who come out of the Great Tribulation. Revelation 7
God bless, and stay in the word.
Romans 2: 28-29
~ For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: ~ But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of YHWH.
. . Therefore, if I am a Jew inwardly, am I not part of the body of Israel? Which is in full agreement with Romans 11, where it is explained that we are grafted on to the Holy root. These Passages were given to us, to help us to understand that the New Testament agrees with the Old, in that there is no difference in the instruction for Israel and the stranger that sojourns with them, as clearly stated in Numbers 15.
. . Also, the Passage you shared above, as reference to “The Rapture”, has an important operative text that it seems you may have overlooked. Please notice which trump is sounded at the time that this is supposed to occur.
1 Corinthians 15: 52
~ In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
. . Last but not least, there are Passages that you truly need to be mindful of, for I believe they are talking specifically about you, and everyone else who are teaching of a pre-Trib rapture. Please, study these carefully.
Jeremiah 14: 13-16
~ Then said I, Ah, Almighty YHWH! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. ~ Then YHWH said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in My Name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. ~ Therefore thus saith YHWH concerning the prophets that prophesy in My Name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. ~ And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.
. . How many teach assurance of peace, that they shall not suffer sword or famine, because of the “rapture”?
Ezekiel 13: 1-3, 6-15, 20-23
~ And the Word of YHWH came unto me, saying, ~ Son of Man, Prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say Thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the Word of YHWH; ~ Thus saith the Almighty YHWH; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! ~ … ~ They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, YHWH saith: and YHWH hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the Word. ~ Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, YHWH saith it; albeit I have not spoken? ~ Therefore thus saith the Almighty YHWH; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Almighty YHWH. ~ And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Almighty YHWH.
10 . . . . Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: ~ Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. ~ Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? ~ Therefore thus saith the Almighty YHWH; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it. ~ So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am YHWH. ~ Thus will I accomplish My wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; ~ …
20 . . Wherefore thus saith the Almighty YHWH; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. ~ Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am YHWH. ~ Because with lies ye have made the heart of the Righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: ~ Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am YHWH.
. . Can you see this “wall” depicted in this Passage, as a wall of Prophetic protection, and the untempered mortar as the words given, so as to hold the wall as securely affirmed? I see this wall as the pre-Trib rapture, the false assurance of safety from the coming Tribulation. Notice how He shall use Tribulatory acts to remove the mortar. This fits so perfectly, for the very thing that is falsely prophesied is used to prove it false. However, this warning of this Passage, against this falsehood is wrapped up with even more applicably descriptive words. For it speaks of them hunting souls to make them fly. If that’s not speaking of the falsehood of the rapture, then what is it? And, it goes on to say that “with lies ye have made the heart of the Righteous sad”. Oh, how sad they shall be, when they find that they must endure the Tribulation, and have not prepared, because they believed that to prepare would be a lack of faith. Just as the above Prophecy states, the people will be asking where the mortar is that you daubed this wall with? They will wonder why your stated “truths”, have proven untrue.
. . As a matter of fact, look how the following Passage agrees.
Revelation 8: 10-11
~ And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; ~ And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
. . “Waters” are used to signify knowledge. And, “burning as it were a lamp”, would be the supposed light unto the world. The major servings of wormwood fed to the congregations today are:
• The Law is not part of the New Covenant,
• Grace grants us eternal security.
And, the main one I believe this verse is referring to;
• We won’t suffer tribulation, for we shall be raptured prior to it.
. . The reason that many men will die, is because the people turn bitter and lose hope. For, rather than preparing for the wrath to come, in accordance with the warnings they were given through the Word, they trusted the false teachings, the wormwood they’d been fed, and believed they would not suffer. They find out that everything they’ve believed in, are lies, and perhaps begin to doubt the very existence of the Creator. Therefore, actually, the intent expressed here of the many that die “of the waters”, may very well be referring to a Spiritual death, the death of the worst kind.
. . Again, your reference for your pre-Trib belief, actually affirms the post-Trib standing. For the last trump shall sound after the others have sounded, and have brought forth the operations of the Tribulation period.
Troy, I don’t disagree with much of what you say, but you seem to be spiritualizing the texts here. Read the whole book of Romans and Galatians in relationship to “The Law” and Israel. Spiritual Israel. The gentile church is grafted in, Romans 11.
So you think that we are deep into the book of Revelation? Third angel?
The book of Revelation is actually easy to break down. Almost all of the references and symbols are found in the Old Testament. Revelation 1, is the vision of the glorified Christ. Revelation 2 thru Revelation 3 is the Church age. We are in the Laodicean age now, just prior to the Rapture. Revelation 3:14-22.
Revelation 4 opens with the Rapture. After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard [was] like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” This passage speaks to the Rapture of the true Church. Those virgins who are ready. Matthew 25. The Door, Trump, Hebrew idioms for the Feast of Trumpets: See here. There are many trumpets in the bible. Golden, Silver, Shofars and they have different uses. Assemblies, battle orders, etc.. You will need to look into the history and culture of the original audience. This is part of a good bible interpretation method. (Hermeneutics) https://amos37.com/2011/07/27/a-golden-trumpet/
When we get to Revelation 5 and Revelation 6 we see the 24 elders worshiping God & and the Tribulation Period (Daniels 70th prophetic week is about to commence).
Note: The Great Assembly with the elders & “And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,” Representation of the gentile Church.
The seal judgements are for Israel as Jesus outlined in Matthew 24. Church (gentile) and Rapture where still mysteries (not yet revealed) at this point. Ephesians 3, 1 Corinthians 15:51.
Revelation 6 thru Revelation 20 cover in detail the Tribulation Period. Daniel’s 70th week which is for the Jews and Israel/Jerusalem. Daniel 9:20-27
“Seventy weeks are determined For YOUR people (Jews) and for YOUR holy city (Jerusalem). Note how the Church IS NOT mentioned in after on the earth after Revelation 3
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=church&t=KJV&cscs=Revelation&sf=5
The text very Jewish and Messianic. This is for the purpose (the 144,000) to spread the gospel like the apostle Paul. They are the only ones afforded a seal of protection Revelation 7:3-4. Then we see a great multitude of people who get saved during this period “under the altar” Revelation 7:14.
Details about the this period are laid out. Please also see our study on the Jewish wedding system for a the biblical understanding of the Church with her Groom (Jesus) for 7 years. https://amos37.com/2007/07/28/daniels-70-weeks/
Your proof texts from Jeremiah and Ezekiel are for Israel. God promised the Church she would NOT SEE WRATH. 1 Thess 5:19 (In context about the Rapture) We are however and many don’t see this. God has also promised us Tribulation (trouble) and persecution. This is not to be confused with wrath. The sword, famine & pestilence of wrath is seen again in the seal judgements Revelation 6 & Matthew 24 are for an unbelieving world and a witness against Israel.
*NOTE: The Church and Israel are different. You seem to subscribe to Supersessionism/Replacement Theology. May I refer you to this awesome study with notes & outlines on Israelology: https://amos37.com/2012/08/06/israelology-session-index/
God bless Troy. Hopefully we can respectfully disagree.
Point number 4, that the church and Israel are distinct entities is completely of the mark. This is a notion that was introduced to the church by a certain denomination back around 1827. Its primary proponent, J.N. Darby, introduced the heresy of premillennial dispensationalism to the church, and I imagine it tickled so many ears successfully that it stuck. It is now a foundational teaching for establishing a pretrib rapture. Without it, the doctrine falls apart. Let’s look at what Paul taught concerning the church and Israel. The church has not been excluded from Israel and Israel is not separate from the church. It is crystal clear if one has eyes to see.
Ephesians 2:11-2
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
1 & 2. These two points don’t say anything evidential regarding pre-trib rapture. It’s ironic that the only reference given is stated in support of post-trib.
3. As a person who leans more post than pre, I see the opposite.
4 & 6. This pre-supposes that dual-covenant theology is a biblically correct hermeneutic. Number 4 has to be correct for 6 to be correct. Nothing has been established to support that point 4 is correct. Why are scriptures being used to support 6 when support has yet to be given for dual-covenant theology?
5. Post-trib does, too.
7. The Old Testament does not mention the church in the context of the church because these things were a mystery that wouldn’t be revealed until Christ (Ephesians 3:1-13). Not all of the passages you reference are about the Great Tribulation.
8. None of the passages you reference mention ethnic Israel, either. (Matthew 24:16 is about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, an immediate prophesy that represents a greater fulfillment when Christ ultimately returns.) It’s strange of you to use Thessalonian passages since Paul is writing to Gentile Christians. Your Revelation reference does mention the church (13:7, 14:12, and 18:20 for example), just not in the words you want them to be represented by.
9 & 10. It’s arrogant to claim any viewpoint on the Great Tribulation “is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture.” We’re talking about prophesy, which is as much a mystery to us now (1 Corinthians 15:51) as the things Christ came to fulfill were to those before he died, rose, and ascended (Colossians 1:26). It’s good to read and talk about these things, but to claim pre-trib or dual-covenant theology is correct and other views are wrong is a quarreling over words (1 Timothy 6:4, 2 Timothy 2:14; 2:23).
11. On the contrary, to claim Daniel’s 70th week happens after a 2,000+ year pause is confusing. Regardless of where a person stands on the rapture in relationship with the Great Tribulation, dispensational theology is nothing but eisegesis.
12. Again, not in the words you want it to appear. All who are in Christ are his church. References to the “saints” are also references to the church (1 Corinthians 1:2).
13. First, compare Revelation 6:12-7:17 with Matthew 28:29-31. These are the only two places in scripture (along with Mark 13:24-27) that talk about the stars falling from heaven. The breaking of the 6th seal is the rapture. (This viewpoint is compatible to a pre, mid, or post-trib perspective, but not with dispensationalism.) Secondly, a time of tribulation and the day of wrath are not the same thing.
14. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 is saying that the Day of the Lord will not shock those who are in Christ. They will have known the signs of his coming. Whereas those who are not in Christ will be taken by surprise. The Day of the Lord will be sudden and unexpected. Do not miss v.11 which tells us to encourage one another with these promises.
15. Luke 21:36 instructs the Christian to remain steadfast so that they are able to escape the tumultuous times and circumstances that will take place before Christ’s return, not the Great Tribulation itself. If anything, this speaks more of a post-trib rapture than pre-trib!
16 & 17. Deliverance from the hour of trial does not mean a person will be taken out of the world, any more than Noah or Lot or Rahab were taken from the world during their circumstances.
18. John 14:3 is not talking about the rapture.
19 – 21. All who are in Christ are one body (1 Corinthians 12:12, Ephesians 4:4). If Christ raptures the church, and then there are people who come to Christ during the period of Great Tribulation, the body is divided. That’s one of the complications of pre-trib teaching.
22. References?
23. How does post-trib confuse these terms?
24. So does pre and mid-trib.
25. Utter foolishness, sir. The post-trib perspective does NOT contradict the exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord. As mentioned earlier, 1 Thes. 5:11 (and 4:18 is like it) means that we should encourage one another with these words of Christ’s return. It is divisive for you to claim that pre-trib teaches the immanency of Christ’s return and that mid and post-trib do not. Repent of this divisiveness.
26 & 27. The exhortation to purify ourselves is significant in view of the calling to be holy as God is holy (Matthew 5:48; 1 Peter 1:16). We are told to look for signs, and we are told to be holy.
28. References?
29 & 30. The Holy Spirit is possibly the restrainer. But it’s more likely Michael the archangel (Daniel 11:45 and 12:1; Revelation 12:7).
31. Conjecture.
32. Okay?
33. I know many expositors who don’t teach this. There is no scriptural support for the twenty-four elders being a representation of the church.
34. Where does scripture suggest that the Second Coming and the rapture are separate events?
35. Conjecture. There’s no certainty in understanding that Isaiah 65 is talking about a millennial or eternal state. The mention of animals in v.25 would suggest that this is descriptive of the messianic era. Hence these verses describe an idealized time for Jerusalem.
36 & 37. How is Matthew 25 talking about the judgment of the Gentiles?
38. How is the judgment of Israel subsequent to the Second Coming?
39. References? (Don’t you think it would be important to establish 39-50 before arguing 32-38?)
40. The Jews misunderstood Zechariah’s prophesy also. The Day of Wrath and the Day of the Lord are the same day (Zephaniah 1:14-15). It is imperative that you use scripture to interpret scripture. Dividing it up the way you do is eisegetical and problematic.
41. References?
42. References?
43. References?
44. References?
45. False. Scripture gives absolutely zero evidence for a secret rapture. It is very clearly going to be bright and loud, and everyone is going to see it (Matthew 24:27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).
46 to 50. Not a single reference. You’ve given no establishment that the rapture and Second Coming are separate events. Perhaps this whole thing was written to entertain dispensationalists and not convince a non-dispensationalist of a pre-tribulation rapture? Otherwise, you pre-suppose almost every point you make giving few references, as if dispensationalism is established truth and any other viewpoint holds the burden of proof.
BELOVED DAUGHTER OF THE KING ELOHIM THROUGH AND IN CHRIST JESUS – Laurie,
Within “Revelation 7:9-17” The Apostle John describes seeing a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, relatives, peoples and languages, that stood before THE THRONE.
And while speaking with one of the elders he is told that they are souls which HAD their robes MADE WHITE BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.
And within “Revelation 19:14” and “Revelation 20:4” The Apostle John describes seeing armies which were on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which FOLLOWED THE LORD FROM WITHIN HEAVEN : and seeing thrones, and they that sat upon them, and THAT they WERE GIVEN THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE JUDGMENT; AND DURING CHRIST JESUS’ MILLENIAL REIGN they LIVED AND REIGNED WITH HIM.
BELOVED SON OF THE KING ELOHIM THROUGH AND IN CHRIST JESUS – Troy,
The false prophets spoken of in the Old Testament are they who Amos 3:7 referred to in regard to the church at Laodicea.
These false prophets are they which utilize the motivational speaking approach of Tony Robbins for their teachings that are based on the power of positive thinking, rather than THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST JESUS WHICH the false prophets refer to as negative speech.
The false prophets, for what they refer to as positive speech, would rather say that they believe that sodomites, pedophiles, homosexuals, lesbians, adulterers, fornicators, committers of necrophilia, coveters, committers of bestiality ,,, the sexually immoral would enter into GOD’S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN; because nobody KNOWS what is in the heart of man: as the false prophets would push the telling of souls to accept the sexually immoral in their unrepentant state; and to accept the sin which the sexually immoral choose to commit.
The false prophets, in order to avoid what they refer to as negative speech, refuse to CALL FOR sinners to come to REPENTANCE from, while DESIRING TO RECEIVE GOD’S DELIVERANCE FROM, the committing of sin; UNTO BEING IN RECEIPT OF GOD’S FORGIVENESS, GOD’S SEALING AS ONE OF HIS CHILDREN WI TH THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, GOD’S “GIFT OF GRACE – ETERNAL LIFE”, BY GOD’S GIVING HIS REWARD OF SALVATION TO sinners that make the choice of turning from wickedness to RIGHTEOUSNESS THROUGH AND IN CHRIST JESUS BY FAITH.
BELOVED SON OF THE KING ELOHIM THROUGH AND IN CHRIST JESUS – Alan,
Please remember what the definition of remnant means.
Romans 11:2-7
King James Version (KJV)
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Now, please remember what the definition of fullness means.
Romans 11:8-36
King James Version (KJV)
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
On the day of the fullness of Gentiles will be the day OUR HOLY FATHER WILL SEND CHRIST JESUS TO this earth TO RAPTURE HIS BRIDE – THE CHURCH – AWAY: and the one hundred and forty four thousand virgins WILL BEGIN DOING GOD’S MINISTRY OF AWAKING the Israelites FROM THE SPIRIT OF SLEEP, TO THE SEEING with the eyes, AND THE HEARING with the ears, of the Israelites.
Revelation Session Index 24 Video Sessions & Notes
https://amos37.com/2012/02/07/revindx/
Rapture Series Audio
https://amos37.com/category/prophecy/rapture-series-audio/
Israelology Overview: What is Israelology? It is the doctrine of Israel and this topic covers 5/6th’s of the bible. Session Indexed below with audio links and helps.
https://amos37.com/2012/08/06/israelology-session-index/
Historically….
1. It really doesn’t matter how early people believed a particular view. I know many claim that the pre-trib view has origins in the 1800’s and your first point suggests that there are earlier accounts…. no matter. Adam was the first person to be wrong. How early a view is recognized doesn’t account for it’s accuracy. So right or wrong, this point doesn’t support the view.
2. See point one. Same argument… longevity doesn’t offer support. Just means people have been wrong longer.
3. This statement is an absolute falsehood. In fact every foundational point that is made by the pre-trib doctrine is not based in Scripture, but rather in assumption, opinion, conjecture, and speculation. I know that sounds obtuse, but I can back up and prove this.
4. Pretrib does indeed ATTEMPT to distinguish between Israel, and the church. This is a foundational lie. There is NO clearly about it, other than clearly brainwashing people into thinking the time of “Jacob’s trouble” is the great tribulation. You always hear this stated without support. Why, because it is NOT! Jacob’s trouble… Jer. 30:7 causes Israel to be scattered… Jer. 30:10,11 to the ends of the earth…. Jer. 30:12 thru Jer. 31:8 where she is gathered from the ends of the earth. Isaiah tells us that once she is gathered she will never be scattered again. This was fulfilled beginning in 70 AD, in 162 AD Jerusalem was completely exterminated (marking the worst time ever for Israel) of Jews and they continued to be scattered until 1948 where she was again gathered into a nation. When the Messiah returns Israel will NOT be scattered, Jerusalem WILL be occupied by Jews…. Zech 12:1-3. Let us not forget that the walls of separation have come down between Jew and gentile… Eph. 2:11-14. The pertrib doctrine works hard to reconstruct these walls… to their respective programs as you say.
5. Pretribulation does not “maintain”, but rather inflates the great tribulation…. or should I state GREAT tribulation. This argument does not support the view. I do recognize that the view enunciates it though.
6. I’ve never heard the pretrib ever discuss this properly. In fact they just state plainly that the time of Jacob’s trouble is the great tribulation, when it isn’t, and they offer no support than to ASSUME that the worst time ever for Israel is the great tribulation…people buy into the lie and move on without explanation.
7. I wonder why that is…. Could it be that these passages are not about the end times at all? Absolutely… Titus who made a covenant with the Roman Empire to squelch the Jewish rebellion took 3.5 years to do it from 66 AD to 70 AD in which the temple in Jerusalem was decimated and the daily sacrifices ENDED, and remain ENDED for nearly 2000 years… fulfilling Daniel 9:27. Jacob’s trouble the same exact era, and Daniel 12:1, 2 which starts out…. “At that time….” what time, the time just described. Daniel 11 reads like a history book from the time of the Greeks to the time of the Roman Empire…. Daniel 11:40,41… The Roman Empire which includes the “Glorious” city but not Ammon, Moab, and Edom. …. THAT TIME. Jesus also spoke of this time, the disciples specifically asked Him… Matt. 24:1-3a, 15-21.
8. Jesus told the disciples to go and make “disciples” of all nations… He didn’t state go and make “churches” of all nations. Jesus told us that we are assigned to tribulation…. be of good cheer concerning it…. John 16:33. He tells us that those who are not prepared for tribulation and persecution will “immediately stumble” when it comes, and calls them “stony soil”… Mark 4:17,18
9. Hmmm…. comparing one incorrect view with another incorrect view…. sorry cross another argument off your 50.
10. The trumpet issue. 1 Cor. 15:51,52…”51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ” And Rev. 10:7 ” 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound , the mystery of God should be finished , as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” The only two verses that mention the last trumpet, and the mystery revealed in the ENTIRE WORD OF GOD. Peter calls this “willingly ignorant.”
11. unity…what? It destroys the unity and places a gap of around 2000 years between the 69th and 70th week. Jesus fulfilled ALL the weeks…. He became the daily sacrifice for us… Titus brought the daily sacrifices to a halt in 70 AD… see response to #7
That concludes the Historical points. None of your points stand. You have no argument.
The Nature of the Church
12, This is a secondary argument that is based on the validity of an argument not yet substantiated. I see that is addressed in arguments 39-50, and so I will address it then.
13. The Church is not…. NO! Everyone who is God’s own. The pretrib doctrine separates the body of Christ into 3 bodies… Israel, church, and tribulation saints. We are one body in Christ Jesus… NOT three. ALL of God’s people ARE NOT assigned or appointed to wrath… not just the church. The pretrib doctrine is the doctrine that APPOINTS GOD’s people to wrath…. Jew, and tribulation saints. They do this by changing God’s eternal wrath into something temporal…. it is not. We are not appointed to wrath… BUT to SALVATION, and FOREVER living with Him…. don’t forget verse 10… 1 Thess. 5:9,10… We are not going to experience the wrath to come, because that is Hell. The same Greek word for wrath is used in 1 Thess. 1:10, 1 Thess. 5:9, Rev. 6:16,17, and Rev. 11. After which a different Greek word often translated anger is in some versions translated wrath from Rev. 12 on… it is not the same word. Man who has the temporal mindset, declares that God’s wrath has come in Rev. 6:16,17… NOT GOD. God declares His wrath in Rev. 11, when he judges the wicked who died, i.e. place them in their appointment/assignment of Hell.
14. That’s right the God’s own will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord, because the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night… 1 Thess. 5;2, Rev. 16:15, 2 Peter 3:10. Jesus declares His second coming, “as a thief…” If a rapture were to happen 7 years prior, then Jesus would be lying concerning the nature on how He would come… unexpectedly, because the rapture would declare it’s existence, removing all doubt that it was coming. The rapture happens exactly when and where Jesus declares, Rev. 16:15, initiating the day of the Lord that brings total destruction of the heavens and the Earth… 2 Peter 3:10.
15. REALLY? So you are ASSUMING that ESCAPE=RAPTURE? If that is the case… who gets raptured? If you state those who are saved, then you have to rewrite the message of salvation, because we are not saved by works… according to you…. Luke 21:36 we are commanded to .. PRAY ALWAYS that we may be considered WORTHY to ESCAPE=RAPTURED=SALVATION. Since when did salvation equate to works or worthiness through the work of praying always? That is an absurd idea. Rather the verse proves that the church will be going through the tribulation and Jesus is telling His people to pray so that they can escape it all in true Psalm 91 fashion.
16. That is wonderful that you recognize that a singular church was singled out to be kept from the hour of temptation. Sad that you fail to recognize that their reason for it. They fulfilled the contingency that was required to escape it, just like Jesus requires us to be “Praying always…” in Luke 21:36, and Psalm 91 also lays out the same contingencies.
17. It is true that God delivers His own prior to total destruction 2 Peter 3:10. It is also true that we are assigned and appointed to tribulation and persecution… Luke 4:18, John 16:33, 2 Tim. 3:12. The pretrib view is an escape from our promised appointment.
18. Jesus indeed went to prepare a place for us, but it is an ASSUMPTION that the raptured go to heaven. You will not find a single verse that states this. Rather the opposite. The dead in Christ are indeed risen first and in Heaven, however Paul tells the bride how to get ready on Earth for when Jesus comes FOR HER with all of His saints (who have died and gone on before)….1 Thess. 3:12,13. The bride makes herself ready on Earth. she does this by the “righteous acts of the saints” These acts can only be preformed on Earth. The pretrib view ASSUMES that the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven…. Scripture does not indicate that. The pretrib view ASSUMES that the raptured have glorified celestial bodies. The Word tells us that the DEAD have glorified celestial bodies, but that we (the raptured) are simply just “changed”… 1 Cor. 15:51,52…READ IT!. We are changed not for heaven, but for the new Earth.
19. You are contradicting yourself here. See #15. The reason for the conflict withing the pretrib view is because of Luke 21:36, if you believe that escape is rapture then you are now excepting the idea of salvation through works. If you are going to maintain your belief as you state in this argument, then you must drop the idea that escape is referring to the rapture., and if you do that, then you now understand that Jesus is telling His own that they will be going through the great tribulation.
20. That’s wonderful that you understand this…. now clean up the mess that you’ve created by contradicting yourself in reason #15, and #19.
21. That great that you understand that…. now clean up the contradictory mess of #15,#19,and #20
22. That is an ASSUMPTION. The study of the pretrib doctrine is a study of ASSUMPTIONS.
23. Nice… confuse. When Jesus spoke to the disciples/elect, the church didn’t exist. The word “Christian” wasn’t coined until Acts 19. The pretrib doctrine really seems to confuse the fact that when John wrote the 7 churches that is who He was writing in the first 3 chapters of Rev. He called them specifically by name. They are very much like the churches today full of saved and unsaved, or those who overcome and those who do not, those who are hot, and those who are cold. After which John addresses the saints… those who overcome. The saints are martyred for their faith (5th seal), long before the 144,000 Jews are marked.
24. That it does…. it lies. Imminent means that nothing must precede it, and it is ready to happen. Paul states that this is not true. He tells us that two things must happen first before we are gathered together with Him… 2 Thess. 2:1-3. One the anti-christ must first be revealed. Can you name him? You can speculate, but he has NOT been revealed yet…. THUS the term “REVEALED”, the other is a great apostasy/falling away from the faith.
25. Your statement is unscriptural. Paul addresses those who are morning…. 1 Thess. 4:13. Why are they morning? Because they have been taught that there is no resurrection of the dead from the Sadducees. The comfort that Paul is speaking of is directed solely in the fact that at death we are resurrected and forever live with our Savior. This is the same context that 1 Cor. 15:51,52 is birthed out of. I would have no problem with Paul telling us to be comforted by the coming of our Lord… no problem, but he isn’t. The pretrib doctrine doesn’t just stop with the idea of being comforted by Jesus coming, they add-on the idea that it’s comfort that we won’t have to go through the great tribulation as well. That really blows the context out of proportion.
26. Jesus tells us to look for the signs of His coming, not just His coming. The signs bring hope. Even the pretribbers have massive websites pointing out the news articles that point to the signs of His coming.
27. I have been told this many times before, but there seems to be a serious lack… you see Paul tells us that he glories in his tribulations because they purify him…. Rom. 5:3. Pretribbers seem to run far and fast from the cleaning tribulations that come their way. They feel that they are unnecessary, “Why would the Groom beat up His bride right before marring her?” they ask? The mindset of tribulation and persecution is far from what the Scripture teaches. Jesus warns that those that are not prepared for tribulation and persecution will fall away when it comes… Mark 4:18.
28. The statement is false that one group is directed differently from the other. It is unscriptural. Note this however, the box that happens by putting the rapture first creates a lack of understanding for the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets, and bowls. A quarter of the population of the earth has already been killed off fulfilling the 4th horseman, the green (greek.. cloros meaning green) horse, via the environmental movenment, through abortion, pestilence, but those facts go ignored by the pretrib view. Today a third of births of the population of the World is being taken out daily through abortion. Do you think that fact would go unnoticed prophetically in the Word? The Tigris and the Euphrates rivers have already been dried up and the terrorist group ISIS as of a couple week ago has taken control of the dam that has the ability to do so. This fulfills one of the bowls and one of the trumpets, but still it goes unnoticed by the pretrib view. The disaster in Japan is fulfilling the 1/3 of the death of the oceans, yet that too is going unnoticed by the pretrib view. The mark of the beast is scudualed to be online in 2016,2017, that is less than the 3.5 years for the pretrib Daniel prophesy 70th week prediction. Wake-UP!
This concludes the Nature of the Church section.
Clearly we disagree brother…
For your further study may we recommend what many confuse is Israel & The Church. Israelology Overview: What is Israelology? It is the doctrine of Israel and this topic covers 5/6th’s of the bible. Session Indexed below with audio links and helps. One’s view of Israel is key in determining one’s theology.
https://amos37.com/2012/08/06/israelology-session-index/
A brief overview of the nature of The Church: Fundamentals of Ecclesiology 101
What is Ecclesiology? Answer: Ecclesiology is the study of the church.
https://amos37.com/2013/03/14/ecc101/
THE BOOK OF DANIEL is quoted often in the New Testament Book of Revelation. In many ways, the two books need to be read and studied together. Perhaps the most important prophecy of the bible. Daniel’s 70th week. This covers a future 7 year period comes right here. What is Daniel’s 70th week?
https://amos37.com/2013/07/10/dan70th/
The Trumpet issue, let’s go a bit deeper. The view that the Rapture will occur at the mid-point of the Tribulation is based upon 1 Corinthians 15:52 which states that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This Mid-Tribulation Rapture view then declares this trumpet to be the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation 11 that is blown at the mid-point of the Tribulation. Why of the 114 references to trumpets in the Scripture these two are identified as one and the same only defies sound Scriptural research! The context clearly shows the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets (of judgments) of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets therefore can have no relevance for the Church! There are many trumpets mentioned in the bible.
See more here: https://amos37.com/2011/07/27/a-golden-trumpet/
PS you seem very angry sir. And you still have plenty of homework to do. I would add that you think God will not fulfill His word to in His covenants & promises. Sir you have a denominational view of scripture. Not a biblical view. I pray you go a bit deeper.
What of the 7 Churches in Revelation… Look closer… The Church is NOT mentioned after Chapter 4 & the book takes a very Jewish tone to it… However our work stands and we have no problem allowing your rant on our page. God bless you Mr. Roth
Holy Spirit
29. It is an ASSUMPTION that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. The Holy Spirit cannot be removed, because the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent. He is in all and the very essence of everything. The study of the pretrib doctrine is a study of ASSUMPTIONS.
30. Again it is an ASSUMPTION that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer.
31. To use this reasoning show a real lack of integrity. The word in the Greek for “falling away” in 2 Thess. 2:3 is “apostasia” this is where we get the word ‘apostasy’ in English, which means: Turning from one’s faith. Jesus tells us who turns from their faith… He calls them “stony soil”. It is those who do not have the mindset for tribulation and persecution. Sad to consider that these particular people are pretrib believers. Historically this has already happened. In China in the last century the Red Curtain fell and tribulation and persecution came to the Christians. Rick Joiner records in his book, The Harvest, an interview of those leaders who lived through the persecution. They were extremely remorseful that they had taught the pretrib doctrine, rather they wished that they had prepared their people for tribulation and persecution that Jesus promises. They watched their people repeatedly turn from their faith and turn on the brothers in Christ. History repeats itself. I believe it will soon repeat in the USA and worldwide. It is one of the two things that Paul tells us that must happen first before we are gathered together with Him… 2 Thess. 2:1-3. Peter speaks of the mockers, “where is the promise of His coming?” Only an apostate pretribber can mock in this manor. The others believe His promise is after the tribulation.
Conclusion of Holy Spirit section.
The following two excerpts of scripture alone debunk the false teachings of pre-millennial dispensationalism. Thus, no pre-tribulation rapture based on the church and Israel being separate and distinct. It is time for the church to repent of false pre-trib rapture teachings.
Ephesians 2:11-18 Pay attention to verses 14-18
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Ephesians 3:1-6 See verse 6
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
I may be mistaken but number 46 statement about there is no OT scripture about the rapture, I have taken Isaiah 26: 19-21 to speak about the rapture. I am having a hard time placing it after the 2nd coming. Thank you for this list of proof of pretrib rapture.
It was such a blessing and comfort to read.
It was compiled by a friend of ours. Isaiah 26 is a very interesting passage of prophecy isn’t it.
That is to say all Israel is saved? This is talking about those who believe! We indeed are one body! “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.” 1 Cor. 12:12-14.
Again Paul reminds us in Romans Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel…” Romans 9:4-6
Indeed we have been adopted! Into the household of faith Galatians 6:10
Galatians refutes the idea that all Israel/Jews are one… So not sure what your point is… Can you clarify sir?
You sir are out of line. Clearly someone is wrong, maybe both? I have peace and you sir are flinging stones of mocking, apostate (for a eschatology issue,… You have not looked at the study, but if you are a Rick Joyner man, then we have many more issues for those who follow this false prophet, and I dare say a cult. https://amos37.com/2011/11/15/the-gospel-according-to-dominionism/
Persecution is here everywhere today… This is NOT the great tribulation. We are all promised persecution, tribulation, trouble, and the world will hate us.
My understanding of The Restrainer being removed is that of those who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as the body of Christ.
Addressing the false assumption that there is a necessary interval between the rapture and second coming
32. Paul tells us WHEN the rapture is… at the last trumpet. This is also the second coming. Study the last trumpet Rev. 11. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. The wrath of God is poured out on those who have died, and the righteous are rewarded. This fulfills 2 Cor. 5:10 completely. I realize that pretribers and midtribbers believe that the last trumpet is the middle of the tribulation, but the fact is, you cannot have Jesus ruling and reigning forevermore and then the beast killing saints 2 and 3 chapters later. The last trumpet is the end. Read Rev. 10… it tells us about John eating a scroll so that he can prophesy again… it mentions the last trumpet in verse 7. The 5th seal martyrs are one in the same as those who don’t take the mark in Rev. 13,14, and the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same… complementing each other…. one gives amounts the other lists the SAME event. The last trumpet is the last bowl. Guess what …. Jesus declares the rapture at the last bowl… Rev. 16:15.
33. I like the key word on this one… “IF…” Here man’s opinion rather than the Word of God is what is the supporting argument. Both Jesus and Paul warn, “be careful that no man deceive you…” concerning the study of end times. Matt. 24:4, 2 Thess. 2:3
34. 1 Thess. 3:12,13 Paul tells the bride how to get ready on Earth… she is not in heaven as the pretrib view ASSUMES when they point out Rev. 19:7-10. The pretrib doctrine ASSUMES that the wedding feast is in heaven. It is an absurd idea to think that the “righteous acts of the saints” that makes the bride ready are preformed in heaven.
35. The “tribulation saints” belief of the pretrib doctrine contradicts the Word of God. We are one body in Christ Jesus, the walls of separation have come down between Jew and gentile… Eph 2:11-14. Yet the pretrib doctrine separates the body of Christ into 3… Jews, church, and tribulation saints. The tribulation saints cannot be the bride if the bride is raptured and in heaven. The promises that are for the bride would not extend to the tribulation saints…. “we are not appointed to wrath….” but apparently the tribulation saints are. All the huge arguments about the church not going through the GREAT tribulation…. What about these promises for the tribulation saints? They all of a sudden don’t apply? What bible do the tribulation saints get to read?
The ASSUMPTION that the raptured go to heaven is pretrib in nature. The raptured do NOT get glorified incorruptible heavenly bodies… 1 Cor. 15:52…. just the dead. The raptured get “changed” into bodies that have extend life…. Isaiah tells us that those who die under 100 years of age will be considered young. At the rapture/second coming we meet Jesus in the air/clouds/4 winds and we shall forever be with the Lord. Where is He headed… the Mount of Olives. Where He rules and reigns forevermore.
36. Where do you come up with your reasoning? The harvest is at the end of the age…. read Rev. 14:13-20
37. The separation takes place after the harvest at the end of the age…. Rev. 14:13-20. The harvest is in conjunction with the bowl judgements. Blessed are those who die in the Lord at this time. Not everyone dies during this time. There is still people left to curse God because of the hailstones that mark the end. Rev. 16:21 The rapture takes place until Rev. 16:15.
38. Are you sure you typed the correct Scripture reference on this argument? Really good verse though… It speaks of the fulfillment of Israel being gathered in 1948 again as a nation. Assume fulfillment don’t you think?
There is no interval between the rapture and the second coming. All of the verses that tell us that no man knows the day or the hour (Matt. 24:35,36) or tell us that Jesus is coming in a manor of surprise and unannounced refer to the second coming… 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 16:15. If a rapture were to take place 7 years prior, that event would ANNOUNCE the second coming, and make Jesus into a liar in the nature in which He stated how He would come, “like a thief…” The “goodman” of the house would then know at what hour to keep watch for the thief… Matt. 24:41,42.
Addressing the Assumptions that attempt to conjure up differences between the rapture and the second coming.
This separation is the very core of the pretrib doctrine. It is foundational. All the rest of the doctrine is built upon this issue. Therefore they must find differences…. unfortunate for the view, there are none, so they must resort to lying.
39. In this argument it is claimed that at the second coming the saints meet Jesus at the Mount of Olives…. this is a LIE. We meet Jesus in the air. This is where clouds are. This is where the four winds of heaven are. The second coming verse that tells us that we meet Him there is Matt. 24:29-31.
40. This offers no argument for the pretrib view… it simple states one of it’s many ASSUMPTIONS that a conjured event happens at a time when no other events are happening. The pretrib doctrine can offer NO biblical proof of a rapture before the second coming because the doctrine is unbiblical to begin with.
41. This statement is contrary to the Word of God…Matt. 24:29-31, as discussed in #39…. Jesus is in the clouds, and the saints are gathered in the 4 winds.
42. The Scripture NEVER informs us that the living raptured saints go to heaven….NEVER. This is an ASSUMPTION of the pretrib view. Only the dead have incorruptible bodies… 1 Cor. 15:51,52. The bride gets ready for the marriage supper of the Lamb on Earth…. 1 Thess. 3:12,13. Only the dead who have died and risen first are in heaven and return with Christ for the rest of His bride.
43. This offers no argument for the pretrib view… it simple states one of it’s many ASSUMPTIONS that a conjured event happens at a time when no other events are happening. The pretrib doctrine can offer NO biblical proof of a rapture before the second coming because the doctrine is unbiblical to begin with.
44. This one is a mess, because the pretrib doctrine confuses tribulation with wrath, which the Word of God makes a definite distinction between the two. No matter, this comment is merely a comment on the view, and offers no argument for or against it’s position.
45. The rapture is NOT imminent. Paul tells us that two things much happen first before we are gathered together with Him… 2 Thess 2:1-3. One the anti-chrst must first be REVEALED. He is not… you cannot name him. Even if you had inside information telling you who he is, the fact is that hasn’t been revealed yet! Many pretrib teachers won’t even touch this Scripture in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 like J.D. Farag. (Oops, I mentioned another name where I’ve got information from…now what denomination/cult am I? LOL) They have to refer to others who can twist the Scriptures better than themselves to explain away these verses of Paul’s.
46. How does this argument show a distinction between the singular event? The argument is a form of brainwashing. Bandwagon advertizing without presenting substantial reasoning to present the basis of the argument that there is a distinct difference. Rather it uses secondary reasoning assuming you already believe the foundational lie.
47. No. The second coming does not deal with the saved and unsaved. The harvest at the end of the age deals with the saved and the unsaved…. blessed is he who DIES in the Lord after this time… Rev. 14:13 to end of Chap. The second coming/rapture happens at Rev. 16:15 where He comes as a thief. At this time one will be taken and the other one left… those who are left will experience the final plague of Hailstones… Rev. 16:21, they are not saved, godly individuals but those who curse God. It would be an ASSUMPTION that this plague would kill them all. It is an ASSUMPTION that the ‘tribulation saints” are the only survivors after the bowl judgements in the new heavens and new earth.
48. How does this argument show that there is a distinction between the two events? Yes, we understand the view as this comment states, but here again you have submitted a secondary argument without proving the foundational argument that shows a distinct second event. Why can’t the view show a FOUNDATIONAL biblical argument for a division of the singular event? BECAUSE IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL to begin with.
49. There is a very distinct unfulfilled prophesy that stands between the church and the rapture. Paul states that the anti-christ must first be revealed… 2 Thess. 2:1-3. He is not revealed. You can speculate, but speculation only happens before the announcement, afterward it’s not speculation, but “revealed”.
50. Matt. 24:29-31
Check the site, we have been through all this before over and over! You have your opinions… That’s OK..
We have hundreds of hours of study that you have so many holes in your reasoning I simply ask you to research some more… We have at Amos37 examined, pre, post, mid, pre-wrath, pre-mill, post mill, amillennialism etc…
Here is a study most have never done… https://amos37.com/category/theology/israelology/ Hope it helps. Every argument is answered within the site on some article…
Seriously you don’t think that the bible and the Lord Jesus taught to expect Him at any moment?
We quote you…”45. The rapture is NOT imminent.”
Two more pieces of homework and you don’t seem to imploy a historical grammatical approach to bible study. Here are some cultural references that we find… First let’s define some terms:
First, let us look at the general definition of the key word “imminent:” “The quality or condition of being about to occur.”
What Is Imminency? The Doctrine of Imminency. Imminency, as it relates to Bible prophecy, simply means that the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment. No warning signs will indicate a short-term countdown. We as Christians remain on alert 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. https://amos37.com/2013/07/16/wii/
#2 A review of some historical understanding of the Jewish culture as it relates to the Church, The Jews & The Lord Jesus.
Only a Pre-Tribulation Rapture will fit into this scenario.
JEWISH WEDDING AND THE RAPTURE https://amos37.com/2012/08/29/jewish-wedding-and-the-rapture/
There were three groups of people present at every Jewish wedding: the groom, the bride and the invited guests. There will also be three groups of people involved in the marriage of the Lamb.
The Groom
This is Jesus
2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-27
The Bride
This is the Church
2 Corinthians 11:2, Eph. 5:22-32, Revelation 21:9-10
The Guests
Those saved after the Rapture
Matthew 25:1-10
Trumpets again is another issue many do not have the cultural understanding of hebrew to english and the many uses associated with them.
https://amos37.com/2011/07/27/a-golden-trumpet/
The view that the Rapture will occur at the mid-point of the Tribulation is based upon 1 Corinthians 15:52 which states that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This Mid-Tribulation Rapture view then declares this trumpet to be the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation 11 that is blown at the mid-point of the Tribulation. Why of the 114 references to trumpets in the Scripture these two are identified as one and the same only defies sound Scriptural research! The context clearly shows the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets (of judgments) of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets therefore can have no relevance for the Church! There are many trumpets mentioned in the bible.
And the issue we quote #49 “of anti-christ must first be revealed… 2 Thess. 2:1-3 I go into detail in this ongoing audio series by exegiting the Greek parses of both 1st & 2nd Thessalonians. https://amos37.com/2011/07/01/rapture-series-session-02-two-phases/
Description: Session 02 in our study on The Rapture of the Church. Today we examine that the Second Coming will be in two phases. First the Rapture of the Church. 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, & 2 Thessalonians 2. Will be sudden and without warning. The Second Coming Revelation 19:11-16 (Parousia) Where every eye will see Him. We look at how the prophets foretold of the First and Second Coming in the same verses in Isaiah 9:6-7,11:1-10, Zechariah 9:9-10. And the Lord Jesus Himself in Luke 4:18-20 separates His first and Second Coming by only quoting half of the portion of Isaiah 61:1-2.
Hope it helps… Use the tools on the site… Hover over scriptures and click it will take you to BLB and click tools.
You state:
” Seriously you don’t think that the bible and the Lord Jesus taught to expect Him at any moment?
We quote you…”45. The rapture is NOT imminent.” ”
It would appears so, especially because I gave Scripture reference to back it up.
Do you have any Scriptures to back up what you say? Or do you just study the works of man and offer their links? Making false claims. Your claims are indeed false, and I have addressed every one of them…. Scripturally…. not giving you some internet link of man’s wisdom.
I am very aware that the rapture and the second coming come like a thief in the night. It is a singular event. It comes expectantly. It however is NOT imminent, and the Scripture does NOT teach it. MAN does…. YOU do obviously. Why do you refuse to back your view with the Word… because it is unscriptural. You back your view by sending me links of man.
“Be careful that no man deceive you” … Jesus
The imminent concept is a fabrication… conjured up by man to deceive others into believe the lie. As are most of the assumptions, opinion, conjecture, and speculation of the pretrib view. Which is pretty much the entirety of the view.
The problem is, that the pretribbers won’t actually search to Word to prove their point. (It’s a lot of work looking for something that doesn’t exist.) Instead they result to name calling… cult accusing and the like… it’s easier.
I’ve addressed all of your points with the Word of God. The Word of God debates the pretrib view. That is why the view often refuses to debate, and cannot give an account for their “blessed hope” Scripturally.
I’ve addressed every one of the 50 points. It would be so bad if a view had issues on secondary points, but the foundational and primary points is where the view goes a muck. These foundational points the pretribbers refuse to address, using the bate and switch method to keep the focus on secondary arguments. Arguments that must be based on the foundational ones they refuse to address.
The view itself calls Jesus a liar…. as addressed. No wonder the view takes the element of surprise that Jesus places on His (second) coming, “as a thief…” and twists it into the word “immanency” that is unscriptural.
And so do we and we go into the Greek… We use a consistent Hermeneutics & Exegesis. This is my parting scripture for you,
“Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.” 1 Peter 3:8-17
And I quote you…
“…be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear”
Is it not hypocritical to quote this verse that commands you to answer the questions,? Yet you refuse.
Why can you not answer the questions then? You quote the Scripture that commands you to do so? It commands you to answer to the hope that is in you. You call your false pre-tribulation rapture the “blessed hope,” do you not? Yet you refuse to answer the questions that you yourself just quoted that commands you to do so.
I ask you to answer SCRIPTURALLY (that is using the WORD of GOD not some doctrine of man) to the foundational issues.
1. Show Scripturally that the rapture and the second coming are separate events.
2. Show that you are not calling Jesus a liar in the nature in which He stated that He would come for the second coming, “Like a thief…” Rev. 16:15, 2 Peter 3:10.
The very nature of the element of surprise being on the second coming verses proves there is not a precursor event, such as a rapture seven years before. Matt. 24:35,36, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 16:15 The second coming is the rapture.
I know that you cannot answer the question because you are supporting a doctrine of devils and the doctrine you support does not line up with the Word of God. Your multiple refusals proves that I am correct.
It wouldn’t be so bad if it were just a casual doctrine that really didn’t matter in the end. However, it is not. This doctrine that you are supporting is responsible for multitudes falling away from faith in God for not being prepared for tribulation and persecution. It is the doctrine of the “stony” soil believers… Mark 4:18.
Sad to consider that you are preaching a gospel that is responsible for sending so many people to Hell…. and it doesn’t phase you. The Scripture that you just quoted not only commands you to answer the questions, but to respond in fear, yet you just brush off the questions… Why is that? Do you belong to a cult that will fire you from your position in the church if you except the truth? Jesus always taught that salvation comes with a price.
Sir, we could say the same for you weak canned answers… I have been down this road plenty… Our scholarly teachers and Greek, Customs which you refuse to address which was our answer, ignored by you. Were done.
Eschatology is NOT a salvation issue… You have no further comments here. Congrats!
Thank you for this very informative teaching on the pre-trib rapture. I believe that we will be raptured before the antichrist shows up on the scene, the restrainer, God’s church, in which the holy spirit indwells and works through has to be taken out before the man of lawlessness, the man of sin can come on the scene. My God tells me that I will not go through wrath, and I believe him and that clinches it for me.What loving Father would vent his wrath upon his children? again thank you. Vickie Caudill
Glad you liked it Vickie… Stay in the word. Keith @ Amos37
Can you explain the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in light of
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
AD
Al, Thanks for your comment.
There are many factors here. 2 Thessalonians is a followup to 1 Thessalonians.
The Thessalonian epistles are Pauls eschatological epistles. We would expect therefore that Paul would have things to say about the rapture, and we are not disappointed. The Thessalonian church was not only an exemplary church (1 Thess. 1:8); it was an expectant church. Paul writes that the Thessalonians turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven . . . (1 Thess. 1:9, 10). In his first letter Paul writes to urge some not to neglect daily work even though they were to look for the Lords return (4:11, 12), and to comfort those who had lost loved ones, assuring them that those who had died would meet the Lord in the air (4:13, 15).
Pauls second letter is written about six months later. In chapter 2 he writes to correct some false teaching which was troubling the believers in Thessalonica. Paul is trying to save the doctrine of the second coming of Christ from the misconceptions of the Thessalonians.
THE DEPARTURE OF CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS WILL COME FIRST!
“a falling away first” – Greek: apostasia – used twice as a noun, 15 times as a verbs – translated 11 times with the simple word “depart.” This does not seem to be a departure from the faith, but rather the departure of believers from this world before the day of the Lord begins. This means that the coming world ruler we know as the “ANTICHRIST” (called the “Man of Sin” and the “Son of Perdition” in this passage – will not be revealed until after the church-age believers (both Jews and Gentiles) are “departed.”
If your interested, there are many articles that address denomination and Greek studies.
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles
Scripture says we who are His are not appointed unto wrath, is it possible we will be here for the Greeat Tribulation but removed prior to the Day Of The LORD which is a day of darkness, when His wrath is poured out upon the earth; the bowl judgments of Rev 16 ?